Creating Equity in the Design Industry as Senior Professionals Panel Discussion
About this video
Gavin Barrett, Owner, Founding Partner, Chief Creative Officer of Barrett and Welsh; Co-founder of People of Colour in Advertising and Marketing (POCAM) and the Multicultural Marketing Alliance of Canada
Gavin was the inaugural Jury chair and has been a multiple time juror at Marketing multicultural awards. In pursuit of big ideas he has nibbled on pigs' ears (not on a live pig at the time); gone elephant-back in the Thai jungle (no elephants were hurt); gambled in a Macau casino (was utterly destroyed). His work has been brought to life on screens and on pages by Deepa Mehta, David Carson, Bruno Barbey and Louis Ng. His work has run in 35 countries, helped elect prime ministers, attracted the ire of the lawyers for Dolly the clone sheep, drew an angry crowd in Lagos, been studied in business texts in Canada and India and received derisive mention in a John Irving novel. His poems can be found in Understan, his new book and in Penguin anthology of 14 contemporary Indian poets, Reasons for Belonging. He has accumulated 1 wife, 2 kids, a BA (econ.), an MA (eng. lit), a murderous guppy, a scruffy cocker spaniel poodle and 100+ awards for his work. He cannot: sing.
Julian Franklin, President, Franklin Management Group Inc. (FMG)
Julian is a Canadian Marketing Hall of Fame member and business leader with 20+ years client and agency experience in consumer-packaged goods and sports industries. His expertise includes strategic planning, communications, and marketing. His career is distinguished by marketing leadership roles in Canada and the U.S. where he perennially achieved successful business results. He is President, Franklin Management Group Inc. (FMG), a strategic planning, sponsorship and activation consultancy for blue chip clients. Julian corporate governance experience is extensive; he is also a Founding Member of POCAM (People of Colour in Advertising Marketing), an association that advocates for the inclusion and advancement of Black, Indigenous, People of Colour(BIPOC) within Marketing.
Chino Nnadi, Talent Acquisition Specialist at MetaLab
Working in the talent strategy space for 7 years, Chino has had the pleasure of building some of the best teams for top agencies and global brands. Chino is currently is at MetaLab, focused on building out their Global Design team where their work includes products for clients such as Slack, Google, Headspace, Pitch, and Amazon (to name a few). Over the years, working directly with executive leadership to make hiring decisions has given Chino a unique, behind-the-scenes insight into the industry. An advocate for diversity, Chino has pushed to break barriers and challenge how the industry hires talent. Now, Chino has joined POCAM steering committee to continue to use her voice and insights on how the industry hires for the future.
Moderated by Nicola Hamilton RGD
13:30:17 Okay, so we don't need to control shoots. 13:30:21 Alright, 13:30:23 so once we're all here then I will, I'm sorry I will enable the video stream in the feedback platform so that it streams to everybody. 13:30:38 And then I'm not sure if anyone's showing any video today or anything but if you are, you'll just want to take out your headphones, because the connection between headphones and the audio and zoom is kind of funky so, yeah. 13:30:52 Yeah, No, no video of the screen. My. 13:30:56 The book m visible in vocal research presentation. So, I'll do sort of a high level overview of that. 13:31:10 And I will have a conversation. That's the idea. 13:31:11 Awesome. Yes, like all questions for me and I have three questions for her hopefully Julian will be able to make it in for the audience q&a, which we will go to our fair, we have, we finished all of our conversation that's the plan. 13:31:24 Okay. 13:31:26 Okay. Gavin. 13:31:28 She knows last name is Mandy. 13:31:31 Yes, Mandy, okay. 13:31:35 Well I don't know if that's the right pronunciation though if that's what you're asking is what I'm asking but is Tina's joining. great. Perfect. Yeah. 13:31:47 So, first Oscar. Now to get. Yes. 13:31:50 So he know. 13:31:56 How are you, good, good, finally made it in, we're in, we're in 13:32:01 some tech stuff on our end. 13:32:05 Sorry to interrupt. Um, so, once we're ready I guess Nicola if it's cool with you I will like once we hit start webinar, then, or. 13:32:21 Yeah, we, I guess, actually I don't see a start webinar button anymore Do you 13:32:27 know but I'm not a host. So, Yeah, I think it's recording. Okay. 13:32:35 We'll try it. 13:32:37 So what I'll do is once we're already all. 13:32:40 I'm going to click Enable and feed loop so you'll probably just want to wait like a couple of seconds before you start trying. 13:32:48 Rebecca, sorry Nicole you want to ask, you know. Yeah, you know, how do I say your last name. Maddie, Maddie Okay, thank you. 13:32:58 Okay. 13:32:59 Perfect. Okay, so I've got just a little blurb I've got to do off the top. 13:33:07 And just a little bit, welcoming everyone back a little bit about our student awards program. 13:33:14 And then I will introduce you Julian's joining us later in the presentation so I'll just make that note. So no one's confused. And then I will pass it over to you. 13:33:29 And, Gavin, you're going to answer some questions back and forth. Do you want me to monitor the q amp a and love some questions to you or do you want to keep an eye on it. 13:33:39 That would be really helpful. If you could monitor the questions No. Okay. 13:33:45 Yeah. 13:33:46 But what I'll do is I'll do the, sort of, top, top line presentation of the visible and local study, then Gina and I will sort of have a question answer session between those firing questions at each other and answering, and then we'll go to an open q 13:33:58 Firing questions at each other and answering, and then we'll go to an open q&a which is when yes any, any questions you can allow where that point would be really helpful. 13:34:06 Okay, so just give me let me know like the clip you want to come back on. And I'll, I'll pop back in, and I can throw some of those questions to you and hopefully Julian as well. 13:34:15 You know, I'll good with that. Yeah, perfect. Excellent. Cool, cool. Yeah. 13:34:20 Yes. 13:34:21 All right. Amazing. All right, then I will get you both to just turn your audio and cameras off for the first two minutes. 13:34:30 And you can pop back on, as I'm introducing you, Rebecca you good. Yep. Um, if you give me the thumbs up I'll start this and then we should be off to the races. 13:34:41 Awesome, and we're still aiming to wrap this one for. Sorry, just so I keep an eyeball on time that excellent starts at 230. Okay. 13:34:53 Okay. All good. 13:34:56 All good. All right, I'm gonna mute myself. 13:35:18 Hello, everyone. 13:35:19 Thank you for joining me. My name is Nicola Hamilton, or GD, and I would like to welcome you to our second creative director session of the day. This is the first in our mid to senior career professionals, stream, titled shaping the future. 13:35:34 Thanks for standing by. While we sorted out some tech issues. 13:35:38 What's a virtual conference without some tech challenges. 13:35:42 Before we begin, I want to highlight one of our GDS upcoming programs, supporting Canada's design community, so our annual student awards program has distributed more than $350,000, in cash prizes, since it was launched almost 20 years ago. 13:35:59 This year, we have 21 Awards, each sponsored by a very generous industry partner recognized in the name of each award. So these include the pivot Design Award for information design, the Q 30 Award for branding, the new rent award for UX design and the 13:36:16 frontier award for editorial design. If you're a student, watching this stream here right now I encourage you to find out more about entering at our GD student awards dot design, and if you're a firm owner and you want to find out more about sponsoring 13:36:30 an award in the future, you can email our executive director Hillary and firstname.lastname@example.org. 13:36:38 All right onto this sessions presentation. Our next presenters are Gavin Barrett Chino Natty, and Julian, Franklin. 13:36:47 Gavin Barrett is the owner and founding partner and Chief Creative Officer of the award winning agency Barrett and wealth. He's also the co founder of people of color in advertising and marketing, also known as polecat, and of the multicultural marketing 13:37:01 alliance of Canada. She now has worked in the talent strategy space for seven years building some of the best teams for top agencies and global brands. 13:37:11 Currently he knows that made Metalab, where she is focused on building out their global design team, and advocate for diversity, she is pushed to break barriers and challenge how the industry hires talent. 13:37:22 She has joined poke him steering committee to continue to use her voice and insights on how to hire for the future. Julian Franklin who will be joining us a little later in the session is a business leader with 20 plus years experience and consumer packaged 13:37:35 goods and sports industries. Currently he is the president of the Franklin Management Group, a strategic planning a sponsorship and activation consultancy for blue chip clients, you have any questions for our presenters, you can submit them throughout 13:37:59 At the end of the presentation. And we also invite you to interact with us on social media using the hashtag RGDCD. 13:38:05 Check out the social wall in the feed loop lobby to see what other attendees are sharing. Gavin Chino I'm going to turn this over to you if you want to turn your cameras and your microphones on. 13:38:18 I can see Well, I can hear you both. Take it away, please Hello Hello. 13:38:25 Hi everyone. 13:38:29 So, Gina I'll just catch up but we're going to do for everyone, and I'll launch right into the presentation of the studies. Okay. That works. 13:38:39 All right. So, Hi everyone. 13:38:42 Gavin Barrett. 13:38:44 I, what I'm going to do is I'm going to actually present a sort of a top view of a study, it's called visible and vocal as anyone study that a bootcamp did earlier late last year. 13:38:59 And we presented the findings in February this year. 13:39:04 Just a quick top line, it's, it's a Bible study, it's, you know, focuses on the by Bach experience and Canadian advertising, marketing, and design. And so, there's a very interesting findings that I'll try to go with that as, as sort of as in a top line 13:39:23 fashion. And then, Gina and I will will will will basically launch a conversation with each other, that you know will ask me some questions I'll ask her some questions. 13:39:33 it'll be quite casual. 13:39:37 But we're hopeful that between the study, and the conversation there, you know, a few questions will be provoked in your minds, and that point will be happy to take your questions. 13:39:52 With the help of Nicola who will help us, you know, have moderate a Julian hopefully we'll be able to join us by that time, Julian is one of the co founders of program as well. 13:40:05 Gina Would you like to add anything before I know the study. 13:40:11 Right. 13:40:11 Off we go I am going to share my screen and hopefully I do not get kicked out of this presentation. So bear with me for a second. 13:40:21 And if you don't mind if you can just confirm that you can see my screen full size Yes, excellent. You can see it, you can so visible and vocal was a study that 13:40:39 that we launched, we sort of started recruiting. 13:40:47 You started recruiting, folks. Back in November, and by December we had completed our recruitment for the study everyone that signed in completing the questionnaire online. 13:40:59 And we found out some very interesting things we asked some very interesting questions as well questions that are not commonly asked in our business, because this study was focused on the bike park experience. 13:41:13 It was the first study by members by members of Bootcamp, led by members of broken. 13:41:23 It was the first time he ever done by four, and about by professionals in the industry. 13:41:31 And so it's fairly significant that it comes, you know that that that that the study exists and naturally we wanted to focus on what we anticipated might be some of the issues that, you know, Bible professionals face as they navigate their careers. 13:41:50 This industry, so we we dealt with things like micro aggression and racial discrimination, and I intentionally just kept that on screen for a little while. 13:41:58 So you could read it when I was speaking. 13:42:02 But, you know, if you if you should want to revisit what these definitions are a copy of the presentation will be made available to all of you to download. 13:42:12 Later on, and you can read it at pleasure. 13:42:16 So, welcome, exists to ensure the voice vision, and talent of Bible professionals, fully present in Canadian advertising and marketing in all its forms in all categories of the, of the industry. 13:42:29 When we started out we were small group of co founders, to have dropped out, and we have now been joined by additional seven people Gino is one of them. 13:42:42 Yay. 13:42:44 It's an incredible group of highly energized people completely committed to improving diversity and inclusion and equity in in the industry. 13:42:55 The study itself was led by Shazam Gracie who at that time was data scientist at over a john Street and Joshua Richards who's director of creative technology is a john Street and Julian Franklin who will join us later today. 13:43:11 And they did an incredible job of pulling together the study, quick background, we had, we have 309 respondents. 13:43:23 We aim to have about 150 I think so, we doubled that we, we, we had some specifications it. This was by both focus and study that was focused in the industry had never been done before. 13:43:37 And so, you had to qualify you had to be as responsive as you had you had to be Canadian rather than belong. Be by Bach work within advertising, marketing design contacts either agency or client side. 13:43:54 And, you know, we followed all the usual sort of professional conduct. 13:43:58 you know, research study guidelines. 13:44:00 As far as quality was concerned. 13:44:05 In general, we found that most people that we had responded worked at a creative agency. 13:44:10 And there were some that work client side. This is important we wanted to capture some client side data, and it actually plays a role in some in the presentation that I will walk you through the most common functions, creative account service design, 13:44:26 creative and design strategy. 13:44:30 Most were in the industry for less than 10 years so relatively early career. 13:44:36 The predominant ethnicity is covered in the study where South Asian black, followed by black communities. 13:44:46 And this is not a difficult. You know, it sort of mirrors the Canadian patterns. 13:44:52 So in terms of scale, where we talk about some of the gaps, we want to cover next year study. 13:45:01 And I'll come to that at the end, more female and male fairly highly educated, 83% bachelor's degree or higher 61% from middle class or higher background again that comes up in the study itself. 13:45:14 You know, the majority of her relationship. 13:45:17 For 10, big married. 13:45:20 The findings. 13:45:22 And this is where sort of the, we really begin to see the, you know, the story of what it is to be black indigenous or a person of color in this industry, an industry that I will say we all think of as when we suddenly when we, when we talk about it, 13:45:41 or imagine it, we think of as relatively progressive. 13:45:48 To those of us who are by talk a lot of these points of data validation, or confirmation. 13:45:56 And it's worth saying that but until now they were anecdotal. 13:46:00 We share these stories with each other, but we never had data to back it up and now we do. 13:46:07 And it is quite startling and terms of what the mobile experiences, 83% of those who are bipolar have experienced some form of micro aggression 30% report, negative mental health impacts from workplace experiences relating to race 13:46:23 off those who have mental health struggles of those who responded to the study, 50% of our sample in fact reported mental health struggles. They were particularly impacted by their workplace experience and their workplace environment or the negative workplace 13:46:40 environment. You know the kind of injustice as they're exposed to regard, really, you know, lead to them being more on guard all the time being, you know, and naturally that sort of adds to the pressure, they feel, overall, as they navigate their careers. 13:46:55 I spoke about the the background here. It's interesting, the interesting thing to throw out here is that the the dominance of for them, for example, that the majority or at least middle class. 13:47:09 The majority are extremely well educated, the underlying story here says that if you are from a lower socio economic group, or if you don't have as much education as this. 13:47:23 If you're by Bach, you're not likely to get ahead. 13:47:26 So, that's what is not, you know, that's the story behind this particular slide. 13:47:34 Half of course, as I mentioned at the start of the careers or the career, 10, you know 10 years on this. 13:47:42 And for those that have some of the careers it's particularly important to note absence of senior role by professionals, has an impact no role models nobody in positions of power. 13:47:54 There is such a message being sent, and so on. And it's sort of a struggle up hope. 13:48:01 There is a lack of guidance in fact, in the great of industry as well by Bach, overall, 78% of the respondents reported that they had no mentor or no sponsor that place of work, and some of the verb it verbatim responses are on this, on the right hand 13:48:16 side of the screen. You know, my experiences as a person of color that seen as distinct or unusual whereas my white colleagues assume their experiences are universally relatable. 13:48:27 And this is a huge impact on the work we do and the kind of output. 13:48:33 you know, I'll talk about that later. Because, you know, that's, you know, things like cliches in, in the area of design, which we might not see as as cultural cliches but our cultural cliches are rooted in in certain kind of cultural background only. 13:48:52 There is the the idea of course switching, all the time to become to make oneself more palatable more acceptable digestible to those you work with. 13:49:01 And then of course the comment of leadership. 13:49:03 I feel like I have to act Western to be noticed as their type of leader is up, these are, you know, you know, make sad, in a way to think that this is what the state of our industry, often is for backup professionals. 13:49:22 Immigration and the new Canada. 13:49:27 In this area, you know it's worth noting that over half of the people studied were not born in Canada. 13:49:35 That sort of not unusual. If you're in a city like Toronto Toronto is about the same. Canada wide scale. That's about 22% Canada wide, but draw this 52% born outside I think, Canada, certainly 52% visible minority 13:49:53 and 95% agree that we need to be more diverse inclusive in the workplace, and that we need to bring more perspective, bring better. 13:50:01 Newer perspectives to the forefront, there is a lack of diversity in the output seen in the in the creative output that is actually in the Canadian marketplace consumed by the people we're currently designing for creating messages for 13:50:20 coming back to the by talk experience in the industry. 13:50:25 There is trauma, two sides there is trauma, experienced by by professionals because they are direct victims. 13:50:32 So, 83% of experience with micro aggression themselves 56% of experienced direct racial discrimination, 30 33% of activity had to deal with active racial harassment. 13:50:45 But it's double drama because not only are we experiencing it, and I'm going to speak of myself. In the first person because I know I've been there. 13:50:55 Not only are we experiencing it we're seeing others like us experiencing it, so we sort of get the double whammy of having to go through it ourselves, and then seeing those like us also go through those discriminations. 13:51:13 In general, very few bypass professionals in the creative industries believe that race relations are good at the start I mentioned that we will be in particular to make sure that this was a bypassed focus by box centered study. 13:51:26 Typically when you have a study like this, that is Gen pop, let's say that this number gets changed quite dramatically by by the inputs of those who are not by Bach. 13:51:38 If you have those Robach, I think it's good grace wise in Canada, you get a largely negative picture. If you are those who are not largely positive picture. 13:51:50 And that are more balanced picture. Let's say a balance between bad. 13:51:57 But that's not the case in terms of life experience itself, and the particular. 13:52:03 I want to call your attention to anti black racism and the indigenous racism at the Asian racism, and this was this was done before the current wave of anti aging racism, by the way. 13:52:15 The study was done so this just tells you about the ongoing experience of by professionals. 13:52:22 So we're making headway, we're noticing that we're hearing back from our respondents that the majority feel that there are positive steps being taken to fix these things. 13:52:32 But at the same time, not enough. We need a lot more work to be done. 13:52:39 We need. We need more people in leadership positions. There aren't enough there that need to be more concerted diversity, equity and inclusion efforts across the board, including hiring. 13:52:55 And we really need to fix the executive level vacuum. 13:52:59 the vacuum at the executive level, 13:53:03 you know, a very large number of Bible professionals feel that their experiences are not the same as a Caucasian experiences in the industry. We have to work twice as hard three times as hard just to be noticed. 13:53:21 You know, whereas opportunity to simply handed out and we passed over, there's a lot of that fed back to us, 87%, of us say that we have to be on guard for our mental health and our integrity, and our sense of self, just don't make it through work day 13:53:40 without, you know, without feeling, in some way, discriminated against, whether through my progression or direct, you know, more, more aggressive forms of discrimination. 13:53:53 There is a sense of alienation naturally as a result of that. 13:53:57 And of course, as I've mentioned repeatedly there are very few people in in positions of power, and that power differential and the vacuum in positions of power has, has a huge impact. 13:54:12 And these are some derivatives only 10% of the respondents studied said that they weren't management executive positions. 13:54:21 There is, there is an intersection of race and sexual orientation, and for by Barack. 13:54:30 You know, we know that race but it's more of a role in the workplace then for black LGBT LGBT q persons who have less, less less likely to experience the micro aggression. 13:54:46 But the opposite is true for harassment by both LGBT Q, folks, actually have experienced more has been in the workplace. then heterosexual Bible. 13:54:57 You know, professionals, and that that is worth worth drawing out. 13:55:04 So, we have to understand really what the impact is, as these intersections exist at how much more difficult it becomes for, you know, for people who are both by pocket and LGBT Q. 13:55:19 And in general, you know, I think it's clear from the study that we that those who are LGBT q by Bach felt that their companies within less to fix things. 13:55:33 Not enough steps are being taken, there was less less agreement that anything sufficient was being done. Interestingly, client side things are much worse. 13:55:44 Now, this is an important observation, to sort of digest because client side organizations have tremendous power to bring about change. 13:56:00 If clients but their money and the investment behind true diversity inclusion and inclusion, things can sweeping change as possible, because it's client supported. 13:56:11 But we noticed that in client organizations things already, you know, sort of off, creative agencies are more leaders committed committed to DNI them company or brands companies or brands. 13:56:27 In terms of micro aggressions, you know, getting more micro aggressions and companies, applying companies and brands in terms of micro aggressions witness more. 13:56:39 Again, that's it. This, there's a fair bit of this experience repeated across the board. 13:56:46 There's a couple of exceptions but mostly the client experiences Tyneside experiences are worse for by top professionals, again, reflective of the sweeping changes that we need as a society probably some implications. 13:57:05 Before, Jen and I have our conversation. 13:57:16 We this study, and you're welcome to go through it in detail I've sort of really flown through it. 13:57:17 The study really tells us that employers have to take micro aggressions in the workplace more seriously. 13:57:25 Because they are actually having an impact on by top mental health. If we are constantly protecting ourselves hiding ourselves. 13:57:35 You know, guarding who we really are, or trying to protect others like us, that are an awful lot of work is being done in work that's not supposed to be work for us. 13:57:47 You know, we're supposed to be there to create like everyone else we're supposed to be the two, you know, having clients like everyone else and yet we're spending a tremendous amount of time taking care of ourselves protecting ourselves, and in avoidance 13:58:01 of what we need sponsors. We need people in positions of authority and power, we need, we need guidance for the young by professionals, we need careers to be nurtured we need, you know, sponsors to merge. 13:58:22 We need to begin challenging our clients. 13:58:26 If our clients will change on their own it, this this is a tough thing to do. 13:58:32 It is a very hard thing to do clients are very afraid to do it with agencies. 13:58:40 You know, conversely, you it's very easy to read press releases of, you know, 13:58:46 the head of a massive multi, you know, marketing firm multinational marketing so I'm saying I you know I commanded by agencies do this or change in this way, we don't hear very much going in the other direction. 13:59:01 But if we're really doing better in general as professionals in an industry that our clients are then it maybe we need to be part of that change, and delivering that change to them and demanding that change from them. 13:59:15 Certainly, they need to be accountable for the lack of by professionals in their executive roles. By that, for example, you know, chief marketing officers chief brand officer is and so on. 13:59:29 General quick recommendations we need to create new marketing plans and new, new brand new ways of thinking about brands. 13:59:39 Canadian demographics of change on notion of Canadian Anna has changed the growing by about audience must be considered. 13:59:49 You know, I'll give you an example of one of the signs out in Toronto the style of the pandemic was. 13:59:55 Was it, I think, three years apart. 13:59:59 You know, was this graphic and all the Toronto box and not another one was one hockey stick link apart. 14:00:06 And I can tell you as an immigrant from India. 14:00:09 If I was brand new here, I wouldn't know what the hell three games apartment. And I would think of hockey sticks if I would have just read the words as field hockey sticks which other a whole lot shorter than that an ice hockey stick and understanding 14:00:27 the differences the background in, in a by Bach Trudy Bible Canada, you know aware we have visible minorities accounting for 52% of the city population and Toronto Vancouver as an example that 7% in bank in Montreal, really changes how we address design 14:00:44 and communications and advertising to solve business problems we need by pop perspectives in agencies and clients I asked the table. 14:00:55 It's very important however to also make sure that we consider how much power those at the table have because it's one thing to have somebody really junior at the table, who has no power. 14:01:08 And then, and then for them to be silent, or to be overruled. So, we're ready to fix that absence of leadership as well. 14:01:15 We need to make measuring by both perspectives mandatory. 14:01:20 So in terms of effectiveness of work, you know, any distance traveled in terms of growth and brand equity. 14:01:29 You know what a viper perspectives on those things. 14:01:34 You know, we, we often, you know, forget simple things like the value of cultural value of color. 14:01:41 You know, there is a default setting to sort of white, white aesthetics and design, and being blunt here, and we can talk about that in the q amp A. So, we've got to figure out how to include the Bible. 14:01:56 And as far as the presentation is concerned, I'm very happy to see Julian here, who has joined us and we're going to go over to the present at the, the, sort of conversation component between Gina Julian and me. 14:02:10 I'm going to stop, presenting, if I can. 14:02:15 And there we go. 14:02:18 So, welcome Julian and Tina Do you want to kick us off with a question you want you can throw want. Did you want to throw a question at me Gavin. 14:02:26 I've been talking right now, how are you guys 14:02:33 having me. 14:02:38 Julian Gino so I you know I've spoken about, you know, in the study about the need for diversity in in teams design teams. 14:02:47 This is your life's work. This is your careers work. 14:02:50 What are the challenges you faced in building diversity into design and teams. 14:02:56 Yeah and great question and you know when we say design I want to be specific, because this is our God. After all, we're talking. 14:03:04 Print graphic digital and product as well. But this also applies to the industry at large. So, some of the biggest challenges is kind of understanding first. 14:03:16 The difference between equality and equity where quality is making sure that everyone has the same resources where when we're looking at equity in design, it's recognizing that everyone has different circumstances than we speak towards by pop communities. 14:03:32 It's kind of making sure that they have that elevated resources to get people out that's with the same equal outcomes so want to share that first and foremost, but I would say you know when I'm asked, and tasked with okay let's go find a designer, right 14:03:48 off the bat, the profile itself is bias, right, when you think okay let's find a new designer we're thinking okay someone that comes from a traditional agency who's maybe been around a number of agencies or clients and brand side. 14:04:06 And the problem with that as we know is there is a lack of representation. So, if we're constantly looking in the same pool of people, how are we going to find new designers that add that representation. 14:04:19 So first and foremost is actually just looking at the recruitment process which is something that again I dedicated my life to doing and, and kind of seeing what makes sense so that in turn means, you know, rewriting job descriptions refocusing kind of 14:04:33 the lens and not just looking just within kind of your traditional agency or designer profile experience but kind of changing what that requirement looks like, because there are a ton of people there's a huge pool of people that are just going untapped, 14:04:49 you know, which is great for me as a recruiter because I've been able to find those places but you know we want to change the industry as Gavin mentioned, as part of the, you know, visible visible and vocal study, you know, the lack of representation 14:05:05 within the leadership and kind of that executive level vacuum right so when we look around at design, it's largely populated by white space right so you know as a leader, if you think about it you don't just wake up one day and become a leader. 14:05:22 It takes time, takes investment, it takes training is often decades to get to that point, right. 14:05:31 So understanding and knowing this and realizing already the pool of people that are, add representation already a slim but when we get to that area. It's even smaller. 14:05:42 So how can we change this right it's getting ahead of the game. It's really easy to say oh you know just a matter of hiring you know people of color into these positions which of course is great, but it's taking it a step further, how can we invest in 14:05:58 those people, right, investing in intermediates right and understanding the importance of mentorship, as you know, shared with the visible and vocal study 78% of people don't have a mentor, and then you look at leaders and you ask them okay how did you 14:06:14 get to that place. Often they had a mentor so providing those opportunities because again we're talking equity and bringing and allocating users just to bring kind of build that bridge to let people be equal. 14:06:27 Another big thing is, you know, coven coven is real we're doing this virtual presentation and conference. 14:06:37 And a lot of you I know are working from home right now. And with that one of the biggest benefits is looking global. Right. 14:06:46 You know, we don't necessarily need to think okay just within the Canadian or the United States kind of talent market. Right. I've had such great success and in my current role, you know, building teams across the board where the last person I hired him 14:07:02 was from India, the person before that was from Nigeria person before that was in Italy. And again it's finding those spaces and changing those requirements so look outside of but traditional designer experience. 14:07:17 And then lastly, which is huge and I think again was touched on in the visible and vocal study is designing with diversity in mind, right. If you look at your design, you think critically and you know what you're designing for and who you're designing 14:07:33 right to the point of the Canadian of being different, right. Are your are your designs showing a presentation so again working at Metalab were one of the recent pieces of work was nappy for example where we, you know, did a project where you know you're 14:07:50 bringing in stock images that actually have people of color because, you know, as a black lady to put it transparent. You know I don't often see myself in these products and these designs so you know as a designer, you have to think okay how are we designing 14:08:05 with diversity in mind. And you know, even when we were thinking okay we're going to use, you know, a, you know, an orange tone for example right it's a color, and you know it's fairly bland but you know if it's on the lighter shade of things to me and 14:08:22 to a lot of people of color that represents something that again is still designing for a white person I don't see myself in that design. So, you know, it all comes to fold because you know when you have designers that are bad representation, you can 14:08:38 kind of point those things out but it's, you know, really thinking critically about who and what you're designing for and and and taking that extra step. 14:08:52 Very cool, huh, Julian did you want to add to that, for everybody i mean i think you know you know said it perfectly but I just do want to kind of pick up on say no I missed the visible and vocal sorry that Gavin had presented but you know it is a it 14:09:07 is a initiative near and dear to my heart, in, and being part of the developers I think one of the things that she knows that I think is key takeaway to is designing with diversity in mind. 14:09:22 The statistics are telling us everything you need to know about the trend line of what the Canadian population. Currently is and where it's going to be. 14:09:30 And that's, you know for those who are numbers base the numbers, you know, as we say the numbers don't lie and they won't lie so I guess as we as designers who have the ability to now, you know, be that mirror back to the to society of what candidate 14:09:46 looks like, you know, it's going to be less than less, I guess, a crutch to go to the old tropes of what Canada looks like and it'll be seen from by many of us as, not just, You know, you know, kind of being nostalgic. 14:10:05 but intentionally systematically being exclusionary as opposed to include generic, and I think that that's where the lens for many of us who are now moving into, into this industry and trying to stay in this industry and want to be a part of this injury 14:10:20 make this a part of our careers, you know, and are moving up in positions of power. I think those are things where you know and and many of you who are in the same boat. 14:10:29 I think we're going to have to be leaders and kind of calling that out, and also you know understanding that you know the population of which we live in major city centers, etc. 14:10:39 This is what it looks like when you see this on the screen. someone like Gavin myself and Chino, and others, we are less than, less than anomaly we are now just what the foundation of what the country is and what, and for for for the better. 14:10:57 So those are just kind of things as you think about it you know and chinos calculated so well. 14:11:03 Designing with diversity in mind that's what that means, you know, to me, and hopefully for many of us you kind of go through this exercise. 14:11:12 Raising a question I had for both you Julian Gavin but, you know, how would you say from the strength in your voice kind of early in your career in a predominantly white space like how did you get yourself a bit ahead. 14:11:33 You want to go first. 14:11:35 Okay. 14:11:38 Great question. I think it's one of those things where you almost realize what you're doing in the middle of it while you're doing it and. 14:11:53 For me personally, you know my personality was one where I felt. 14:11:57 First of all, I felt very comfortable in my skin and in environment in environment, quite frankly, whether they weren't meant for me, or whether they were went for me whether they were hostile whether they weren't hostile I have just, you know, felt comfortable 14:12:11 in kind of who I was in my abilities to try and soldier on and and a lot of that, you know, I think it served me well through my career, but you know sometimes also it insulates you from, quite honestly, some of the mental stress and the hurt that you 14:12:29 go through a year trying to make it within your within your career because at the end of the day, I have the same goals as everybody else, and when I started out I wanted to, you know, wanted to take my career far wanting to be successful, wanted to you 14:12:45 know make make decisions and do well. And I think to a certain extent, I have done that. But you know, quite honestly, you know, I think I had also tuned out a lot of the things the lot of the micro aggressions a lot of, you know, whether it was jealousy 14:13:02 of kind of where maybe I ended up or being excluded from certain, you know, events, or you know just just, you know, just the environments that I was in, and then just kept moving forward. 14:13:14 And I can speak to some of those quotes of not having mentors, you know, who looked like me, thankfully. 14:13:24 It didn't happen my throughout my entire career I did find one or two mentors you know who ended up, who, who continued to be lifelong friends and mentors who helped long way but it really, you know, for me had become something where my personality I 14:13:37 ended up really just shutting a lot of things off and just moving forward. 14:13:43 You know, I think for me. 14:13:49 I could you know most most people know me know I can shut up. 14:13:55 And I, You know, it was. 14:14:01 It was for trading and irritating enough for me for along my career you know for me to, to feel like I had to speak up. I had, I had wonderful people who are not bypass who, you know, who are supporters and mentors. 14:14:20 And they were great, but there is a message being sent. 14:14:26 When you know when you don't see yourself, and people like you in positions of power and authority. 14:14:36 You know, 14:14:38 and it you know i as i in the earlier stages of my career I don't think I quite recognize what that message was. But as I became more conscious or let's say as I began to rise. 14:14:51 You know, and I thought, well, why am I not rising fast enough. 14:14:58 Those questions you're forced to confront the question and then then you look around and you see, oh there's nobody like me here, I'm, I'm the owners room. 14:15:09 And you also notice things like, you know, you're not being invited you know as you mentioned that as, like, how did that happen when did that happen. 14:15:27 As you begin noticing these things they become, they do change more. As you become senior in the business you become more powerful, perhaps, in a sense, you certainly have the platform. 14:15:37 But I know senior people who are presidents of companies who put them put themselves on, you're on mute. 14:15:44 Figuratively speaking, because they thought it might be a career limiting move to speak up, and I can understand that. I can understand that. 14:15:53 For me, were you know freedom was opening my own company. 14:15:58 And, and, and that certainly freed me to speak. 14:16:02 You know I didn't have to worry about career limiting moves, you know, in a sense, I do, you know, people will not invest sometimes it's up to us too noisy and too abrasive. 14:16:14 But I think the challenge now has become to speak up. 14:16:20 And to find ways to do that, to tell you how to speak truth to the power that exists, the way power has been concentrated in the hands of a few. 14:16:32 I have a, I have a question for you to know. 14:16:35 So taking it back to you. 14:16:40 What would you know, What would you say has been your sort of secret weapon to get past those hurdles, you know, and how you know what advice do you have for, you know, young professionals getting into. 14:16:57 into the creative industry. 14:17:01 I think, you know, very fortunate very similar to yourself Julian, I you know born and raised in Toronto, so I feel like it continued to make me drive through and push Pat past kind of those micro aggressions that are very much prevalent in kind of the 14:17:16 world we live in. And it's kind of as a person of color, overcoming the imposter syndrome and feeling like you're not sleeping tokenized right, recognizing kind of your worth and the power and the work that you're doing a great example of this, I was 14:17:33 actually speaking to a designer who, you know, won't tell you who but you know 10 years at a very prominent and well known company. 14:17:43 And as you know, great experience. And, you know, really, you know, they were struggling kind of as they were looking for different roles they didn't understand okay like why wasn't typing pics are not moving past this level. 14:18:00 And essentially what it came down to was again not having a mentor to help kind of push and kind of steer and guide them like okay here's what your portfolio should look like, you know, especially when you're 10 years, and you've been at the company for 14:18:13 a lot a long time, you know, that changes as a recruiter what I looked for five years ago from a design perspective and what I look for now is vastly different and kind of just understanding and and being a sponge so I think for myself it's just you know, 14:18:28 learning and diving into kind of what I'm looking to do and not being afraid to use my voice and speak up and to put my hand up and say I want to try this right and I encourage an important every person of color to do the same and, you know, be a sponge 14:18:45 get yourself out there go to conferences like this, sit down and have portfolio walkthrough news, and reviews for people reach out on LinkedIn and enough throw yourself out there, because you never know what will happen with that and I think that has 14:19:00 been the biggest difference of just getting myself out there and what I found successful and when I look at the designers that I've hired. 14:19:08 That's really what has made them successful in terms of hiring decisions that way. 14:19:15 Can I just add to that point. 14:19:18 Governance you know and I guess, you know, it's a simple statement but I think it will help us on networking works folks. 14:19:29 And I would say, you know, there's one thing that you could even see how that how effective it works for your white counterparts in the office environment. 14:19:40 You know it's not it's not exclusive to them. 14:19:44 And it's really something that if you're a young byproduct professional, you know, the ability to hone your networking skills, the ability to, you know, reach out to people that may not be in your own industry but you can see that they're doing things 14:20:00 that you could either emulate or you can bring into your own industry to help you grow. 14:20:06 It's tried and true but it really works and honestly, you know, even for myself Chino and Gavin we don't work together. Right, but we do work together, right and it's just because we've, we've found strengthen one another in creating a network in being 14:20:22 a part of poke him and doing things that we feel it should be big enough and broad enough that we want to expand it, we just don't want to keep it closed for, you know, the you know the certain amount of people that we know of color in the industry, we 14:20:37 want to, we want it to grow, and I think for many of you, if you are finding a bit of a struggle to chinos point, because we all go through it, you know, spending your network meeting like minded people, you know, helping yourself kind of grow bouncing 14:20:52 things off. 14:20:54 It definitely helps it definitely works and I would, I would encourage it. 14:20:58 do it as much as you can go. 14:21:02 Like oh I don't know if you'd like. Other questions coming into that we can, but a few there are these free to jump in and send them our way, we can take some questions I know I have your next session at 230. 14:21:15 So, I'm just being mindful of the time. 14:21:18 I appreciate that. We're here. And so our audience. This is your opportunity to ask some questions I see that she knows already been answering some in the q amp a tab. 14:21:28 And if you have questions, please ask them now. 14:21:31 And we can answer them we're going to let this session run just for probably another five minutes or so. And since we did get off to a late start. So, you keep chatting and I'll pop back in. 14:21:42 And when some questions pop up. 14:21:44 All right, I'm going to add to what you know was answered in the q amp a, you know there are some incredible resources out there. 14:21:52 So first of all, the, the mighty algorithm will notice you. If you make choices thoughtfully. 14:22:00 You know, so if you are consciously choosing photo photography stock photography that, because it's a question about individuals postdoc for providers to include more diversity, or if you're only using photographs that show diversity. 14:22:16 Believe me, you're going to get more of those. Eventually, but if you are defaulting to what I call the, The. 14:22:27 Yesterday I was in a meeting yesterday we call it the Canada of the 70s. 14:22:33 If you're defaulting to the candidate the 70s, you know, aesthetic setting. 14:22:39 Then, you're you're not going to see change so it's very much up to us to pursue that in even, even if we're in a, you know, in a on a site that is non diverse, or not associated with a diverse specialization or diverse diversity focus to still pick diversity 14:22:59 in that environment and to push it. I can tell you as somebody who does multicultural advertising. 14:23:03 This has been a huge challenge for us. Over the years, you know, to buy stock photography online that reflects ourselves, because we're speaking to people like us, as we as we nearly impossible. 14:23:19 Man, it's the emergence of home country or country of origin stock options that has actually open that up considerably some really good stock options out there. 14:23:31 Now, from countries of origin, which are definitely usable in a Canadian setting. 14:23:37 There's also things like funds. 14:23:40 You know, we have this this this huge resource out there for Bible type boundaries and Bible typography says. 14:23:51 This is a conscious act again to ask. Am I just default setting to everything that I have always known. I was reading a design leader in the US speaking about how to unlearn everything she has ever been taught about Helvetica, you know, an odd. 14:24:15 And, you know, grids and, you know, how should actually throw that all out. And actually, she shared a photograph of a tie designer, whose studio was just covered with thousands of photographs of every kind of thing from anywhere in the world, because 14:24:32 this Thai designer believed in just being constantly exposed to the world in a creative sense, as, as an input. 14:24:44 And that is liberating. 14:24:46 You know, and challenges are presets. 14:24:52 so interesting, or there's some questions rolling in. 14:24:54 Reagan's wondering if you have any resources to share for creative directors who are looking to start bypass mentorship programs within their companies. 14:25:07 Hmm. 14:25:08 So, Julian and and you know feel free to jump in on this as well Pocahontas did work in this area where we're building, we're building sort of programs with for example we're trying to work great partnerships with schools with, and with organizations 14:25:24 and companies that that help to build a pipeline. 14:25:31 You know, and fix the pipeline that that that doesn't doesn't exist, great one. 14:25:36 Yeah you know to Kevin's point, you know, poke him does have that as part of our long term strategy to develop programming that in invariably, the industry will be able to lean on. 14:25:49 As it stands right now, you know, there's, there's not a lot you know and I guess it's also a good, good question as we look at our own organization, what are our organizations who are set up to do this, quite honestly you know they have the infrastructure 14:26:02 they have the cash. They have the capability, they just haven't instilled it as yet I think that's where, you know, if there is a gap, you know, encourage you know folks who are willing to put that forward within their own organizations and I'm sure you 14:26:20 will. You'll get you'll get kind of the response and the opportunity to build that out. What I would say, on the flip side is there are organizations that have started one that comes to mind is called Black talent initiative. 14:26:32 Black talent initiative is focused on getting 100 early career to first career first job in turns into our industry. 14:26:46 And they are looking to kind of develop that infrastructure so you know it's very focused on getting people in the industry and keeping them there and supporting them, but you know as you look at your own specific organization. 14:26:58 If it's not existent. 14:27:00 You know there's an ability to help develop it and, you know, we are in that on that journey ourselves Pokemon doing it in our own organization so if there is interest you know maybe there's an ability to have a conversation offline. 14:27:13 And to add to that as well again given my background and something that I've implemented slightly within Metalab, you know if you're looking to start now and it's something that program is definitely looking to do and we're building out what that looks 14:27:25 like. But if you're looking within your agency and saying hey I want to put my hand up and start a mentorship program right now it's putting your hand up and saying that and and offering open hours, you know, or office hours to kind of have folks come 14:27:41 organically, reaching out and saying hey Does anyone want to perform the overview or walk through and really getting yourself out there. I've seen it on LinkedIn as well where there are a lot of different creative directors who are actually offering their 14:27:55 time and saying hey, I will walk with through your portfolio and give you my tips and making a call out. And, you know, putting your hands in a mix to be a mentor for, for these folks. 14:28:07 And I think, again, the initiative starts within you and with an agency and it's something that you can build with time and pairing with, you know, pro cam by talent initiative can definitely help bolster those things and speaking with folks like myself 14:28:22 who are in that kind of space to help you to build those programs because it's being done currently on an unofficial kind of situation but it's something that you can you can get started now so don't be afraid to put your hand up. 14:28:41 There's a lot of young folks have done that yeah sorry. 14:28:43 No, it's okay. I was just gonna say I think also, figuring out what it is you need support with if you don't have enough iPod folks to be mentors for you, places like poke him and RTD are always there to help offer resources and access to the kind of 14:28:58 mentors, you want to participate in programs like that. Absolutely. You know I already have such an amazing Slack channel on accessibility for example that I lean on. 14:29:13 You know, and there's no reason why they shouldn't be a Slack channel on diversity and inclusion. 14:29:20 And I think that's a place I know and I can see a question from Mel about, you know, is there a place where we can share resources. Well, that would be an ideal place to share resources, you know, stock imagery sites that are more diverse. 14:29:35 You know by Bach apostrophe typography, you know, that sort of thing. 14:29:39 I can, I can you know there are lots of people willing to embrace and use the tools if they're given the tools, I think we need to collaborate, as a community, and certainly allies are needed. 14:29:49 If you are bike, by talk I will say, You are most welcome to join program, it's a safe space. 14:30:12 And, Mel is actually on our diversity and inclusion team so I think you might have some marching orders from.